40 Years Under His Spell: Waking Up from NXIVM

In this deeply intimate conversation, Mark sits down with his old friend Karen Unterreiner — a woman who spent four decades at the epicenter of what the world came to know as NXIVM. Once a high-ranking member, deeply entangled both professionally and personally with Keith Raniere, Karen shares her long journey of waking up from psychological captivity. What does it mean to have your entire adult identity shaped by someone else’s manipulative design? How do you start to rebuild a self when that self was never fully yours to begin with?

Karen and Mark dive into the mechanics of grooming, the slow erosion of boundaries, and the double binds that kept people loyal. They unpack the devastating misuse of “ethics” as a weapon, the shame loops that silenced dissent, and the emotional landmines survivors navigate when they begin to deprogram. Together, they reflect on friendship, betrayal, and the unexpected ways connection can spark liberation — even years after separation.

This episode is not just about NXIVM. It’s about the broader pattern of coercive control — in groups, relationships, families, and institutions — and what it takes to truly reclaim your mind.